Interesting exchange on a Roman Catholic blog
This comment exchange is between a "former Calvinist" and new convert to Roman Catholicism (going by the name InCatholicTruth) and a Roman Catholic apologist (named Art). The subject is the dumb, new, theologically liberal academic doctrine called the New Perspective on Paul (which the RC apologist shortens to NPSP for New Perspective on Saint Paul...all of us Bible-believing, born again Christians are saints, RC apologist!) and the fact that a traditionalist Roman Catholic (named Sungenis) doesn't agree with the 'NPSP' while the RC apologist who owns the blog does agree with the 'NPSP.'
Note the bolded, underlined text written by the Roman Catholic apologist...
InCatholicTruth said...
Art,
I don't follow Sungenis at all and only own one of his books Not By Faith Alone, which I understand was written before he went off into whatever he has become of late.
Up until 11 months ago I was a Calvinist and I often posted on a "Puritan Forum" (my posting privileges were terminated when I announced that I was becoming Catholic). The principal players on the "Puritan Forum" (not its real title) insisted that the NPP/FV is a heresy and were constantly asserting their Reformed views in a variety of ways to show the errors in the "New Perspective".
Well, this was enough to motivate me to read some N.T. Wright, because how else could I be objective about these matters?
I read several short selections of Wright's on the WEB as well as some of his work "The Climax of the Covenant".
This and many other readings, in conjunction with simply READING the Gospel of Matthew caused the blinders to fall from eyes. It became progressively clear to me that only ONE VISIBLE CHURCH on this Earth is totally faithful to Matthew and the other Gospels in both Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy.
That would be the Roman Catholic Church. I reasoned that if the Catholic Faith is faithful to what Jesus Christ teaches in the Gospels then IT MUST be the Visible Church that Christ founded, because there was far too much rationalization of the Gospels going on every place else I searched.
Well the look on my PCA Pastor's face was interesting to say the least when I informed him that I was becoming a Roman Catholic!
May 15, 2007 6:42 PM
Art Sippo said...
Incatholictruth:
I am so happy to have you with us, my brother. We need to pray for those whom you have left behind who could not follow you.
I think that your story is very similar to Dr. Beckwith''s and I anticipate there will be many more people like you who will follow the NPSP and even the FV (Federal Vision) to return to Catholic unity. [By "Catholic unity" this person means the Roman Catholic antichrist church. RCs don't like to admit that they are "Roman" Catholics. It takes away from their claim to universality, and exposes their pagan, satanic heresy, very much the equal of pagan, satanic Islam.]
BTW it is curious among Protestants that they refer to the "New Perspective on Paul" (NPP). As a Catholic, I like to refer to the "New Perspective on SAINT Paul" (NPSP).
Art
May 15, 2007 9:44 PM
InCatholicTruth said...
Art,
Thanks for your kindness and great wisdom both here and over at the Envoy Forum.
Well, can't claim a background that even approaches Dr. Beckwith's, but I appreciate your comments!
In fact, I design/write Computer Software for a living and kind of "fell into" going to an Evangelical Sect's "Bible College" part-time 11-12 years ago. Looking back, I now realize that much of this was motivated by the guilt I felt over having been divorced, yet with the knowledge that "something had never been right" in that failed marriage from the very beginning.
I won't elaborate further on the marriage issues as I have done over at "Speak your Mind", except to say God's moral law cannot be violated by anyone who truly desires to follow Christ! No amount of Soteriological gamesmanship (like the Calvinist and DEFINITELY the "free grace" Fundamentalists like to play) can change this fact.
Without a visible, authoritative Church to infallibly interpret Scripture and adjudicate complex Moral issues, what are we left with?
EXACTLY the subjective mess we see in Protestantism.
And yes, we can only pray that I our separated brethren will "come home" to the visible, organic unity found in the Eucharist, in submission to the Holy Father, and in the embrace of the Mother Church.
May 16, 2007 6:30 PM
1 Comments:
{This was posted at teh Envoy board and I was asked to post this here. I hope it will be helpful.}
First of all, it is your ridiculous doctrine that needs to be defended not the truth of the Bible. Scripture is clear and it is NOT Protestant.
Secondly, you are the disciple of Luther and Calvin though you lack the honesty to acknowledge it. This is always the failing of Protestants. They oppose the teaching of Luther and Calvin to the Bible and are not willing to admit it.
Thirdly, James 2:24 TOTALLY destroys JBFA forever. When you espouse JBFA you are CONTRADICTING THE BIBLE not reading it. You need to admit this.
Here are a few verses that contradict JBFA definitively:
Mat 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, "Which?" Jesus said, "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Rom 2:6 For he will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
1Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He {God} is righteous.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 ¶ And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
The most abused verse in the Bible is Romans 3:28 which all Protestants take out of context. Here it is in the full context:
Rom 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law
Rom 3:29 or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also.
Rom 3:30 Since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
St. Paul could not be clearer. he is saying that the law which is excluded is the Jewish Law. You do not have to be a practicing Jew to be right before God. The Jewish Law (spoken of in short-hand as being circumcised) only justifies because it is the GROUNDED in the faith of Abraham and the promises thereof. Meanwhile we who are uncircumcised are justified directly through faith in Jesus without reference to the Jewish Law.
But Protestants are amoralists and deny the clear worlds of Scripture forgetting all of what St. Paul actually said:
Gal 5:6 — For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (SEE ROMAN 6. This refers to water baptism.)
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
It is completely clear that all the verses you use to counsel amoralism are really saying that we do not need to be observant Jews in order to be Christian. The verses you quoted say NOTHING about needing faith only to be justified. The NT is clear that faith without works is incomplete and cannot save (James 2:20).
So I once again abjure you in the name of Christ to give up your amoralist human philosophy and believe the Gospel as taught by Jesus and presented once and for all to the saints. Your Protestant lies are innovations and heresies. the Scripture knows nothing of them.
As St. Paul said:
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel--
Gal 1:7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed {Gr.-anathema}!
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed{Gr.-anathema}!
This curse of St. Paul's will apply to you unless you repent!
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro!
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