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6.22.2008

An email I sent to people I annoy with emails...


Don't ever ask me if I've finished Tom Jones (not that anyone asks me anything anymore) because I *will* finish it at some point, but it so strikes me as a shallow work (I can see why it got deleted from the roster of the Great Books of the Western World) that it is a strange feeling to *have* to finish it. The characters are cardboard and shallow, and the events of the novel are simply empty and repetitive and dull. There *is* understanding of human nature, but the novel itself as a work of art is severely lacking. Really, all the story is is something for Fielding to hang his comments on human nature on. You can *really* see that as a storyteller he is routinely going nowhere and ending up at empty dead ends, then starts in another direction for the same result. Thackeray wrote truly funny scenes to accompany his understanding of human nature. I can remember Vanity Fair almost complete right now, but I can barely remember what I've just slogged through in Tom Jones. Paul McCartney's song *The Fool on the Hill* has more meaning that the extensive story-within-a-story of the fool on the hill in Tom Jones. Seriously, you think he is going off on that tangent to portray an interesting character, but his story is as banal as you can imagine (and that is not the point Fielding is making, by the way, he just doesn't know what he's doing as a storyteller). I suppose it was unique for its time - the novel as a literary form, etc. - but I seem to recall that more commentators on it of his day kind of said, "Eh, there ain't much there..."

I know you can't say a classic work of literature is nothing without overstating the matter. Here, though, is a passage from a critic that I found to express my own take thus far:

***David Goldknopf has recently claimed that the digressive elements of the novel and the author's intervening role as a commentator "as a systematic procedure for upgrading the applicability and stature of his work, … signalize his failure to integrate intelligence and imagination." Similarly, Irvin Ehrenpreis suggests that such repeated appearances as those of Sophia's pocketbook and muff, or the attorney Dowling "imply that the main line of action has insufficient energy of its own to contain the numerous episodes of the story." Because of the symmetrical structure of the book, Ehrenpreis suggests, "one stops expecting development and tries to feel satisfied with a line of action that does not, in a cause and effect sense, lead anywhere."***

I'll finish it, and I'll get something from the effort, if only just a refreshed sense that not all classics hit the mark. Kind of like a famous symphony that nevertheless doesn't really have 'it'... It will highlight by contrast those that *do* have 'it'... - C.

20 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

For people who don't know this side of me on Plain Path Puritan my novel reading period was long ago, but I every now and then pick a big classic novel to read to, I guess, just read something different from all the theology and Sacred Writ one tends to read once one comes to the summit (ideally) and connects with it.

I then often complain as I'm in the middle of one of the 1000 page novels that I *could* be reading the Word of God again, and usually also complain that the novel I happen to be reading is not worth my time. 700 pages! and I still have 300 pages!

Then of course I usually don't regret having read the great novel when I do finish it. And somebody's got to read them.

June 22, 2008 at 7:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The list I'm working on:

War and Peace (done)
Vanity Fair (done)
Don Quixote (done - a 500 page abridged version)
Tom Jones - (currently reading)
Brothers Karamazov
Anna Karenina
Moby Dick
Magic Mountain
Ulysses

I've already long ago got these levels of influences down and moved on up the mountain beyond them. I mean, in my initial period of reading such literature I read alot of Dostoevsky and Melville and Joyce and Mann, just not their iconic big respective 'one great representative work'. I'd always think "what about this Confessions of Felix Krull...?" or: "this Typee must be the hidden classic they are keeping the knowledge of from us" and read anything but the one great work of each writer.

That list above looks like a huge deathly waste of time and effort for me now though. I think I capped my novel readings with Vanity Fair a couple of years ago. It was the 'one' I missed that I should have read.

Here's a more serious list:

Holy Bible
Homer
On War
Wealth of Nations
Fourth Way
Thucydides
Plutarch

With that list you can get born into the body/role of a world conquerer and have everything you need by way of understanding. With a little music and athletics in the mix...

June 22, 2008 at 7:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That second list above is the one a centaur gave me by a river...

June 22, 2008 at 7:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reading Homer in English seems pretty much pointless, IMO. Reading Homer in Greek is good practice for Greek comprehension and polishing, but of course of no spiritual value whatsoever. Same with all the others.

And yet, there is more Biblical truth in Herman Melville's "Moby Dick" than there is most sermons preached today. For example, the sermon that Melville preaches through his preacher character in "Moby Dick" has more gospel in it than almost any sermon you hear today.

Plus, "Moby Dick" is full of rich quotes, like this one --

"Immortality is but ubiquity in time." Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Of course, that statement is not actually true, for immortality exists outside of time, but it's still a nice quote, and that work is overflowing with notable quotations.

All in all, however, one should try to stay immersed in the Word rather than stray off into these other tangents.

Yes, I am guilty of the same thing, for it breaks up the seriousness that attains with sticking to purely theological matters, but it's easy to make it a habit rather than a pasttime, so we need to be careful.

Tyndale, Bunyan, et al, would never have read novels or these other works, but then, they didn't have the distractions or the luxuries in their day that we have in ours, and I especially appreciate some of the fine literary qualities that are found in non-theological works. But after all, they have no lasting value.

Bunyan spent his every waking hour with his nose in prayer and the Word, when possible, as did Tyndale. Which is why Spurgeon could say this of Bunyan --

"It is idle merely to let the eye glance over the words, or to recollect the poetical expressions, or the historic facts; but it is blessed to eat into the very soul of the Bible until, at last, you come to talk in Scriptural language, and your very style is fashioned upon Scripture models, and, what is better still, your spirit is flavoured with the words of the Lord. I would quote John Bunyan as an instance of what I mean. Read anything of his, and you will see that it is almost like reading the Bible itself. He had studied our Authorized Version, which will never be bettered, as I judge, till Christ shall come; he had read it till his very soul was saturated with Scripture; and, though his writings are charmingly full of poetry, yet he cannot give us his Pilgrim's Progress — that sweetest of all prose poems — without continually making us feel and say, 'Why, this man is a living Bible!' Prick him anywhere — his blood is Bibline, the very essence of the Bible flows from him. He cannot speak without quoting a text, for his very soul is full of the Word of God. I commend his example to you, beloved, and, still more, the example of our Lord Jesus. If the Spirit of God be in you, he will make you love the Word of God; and if any of you imagine that the Spirit of God will lead you to dispense with the Bible, you are under the influence of another spirit which is not the Spirit of God at all. I trust that the Holy Spirit will endear to you every page of this Divine Record, so that you will feed upon it yourselves, and afterwards speak it out to others. I think it is well worthy of your constant remembrance that, even in death, our blessed Master showed the ruling passion of his spirit, so that his last words were a quotation from Scripture — 'It is finished. Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.'" C. H. Spurgeon, The Last Words of Christ on the Cross

June 22, 2008 at 3:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

>Tyndale, Bunyan, et al, would never have read novels or these other works, but then, they didn't have the distractions or the luxuries in their day that we have in ours, and I especially appreciate some of the fine literary qualities that are found in non-theological works. But after all, they have no lasting value.

Yet they both wrote numerous books (very numerous in Bunyan's case) for others to give their time and energy to read and study.

Here's another way to see this: The Word of God is the only pure influence, it is special revelation; but there is also general revelation, which includes the creative and otherwise works of man (history, imaginative literture, art, music, philosophy, science, religion). General revelation of this nature is not pure, but will have truth in it to greater or lesser degree. The Homeric epics for instance contain a very refined visual language that gives a person the ability to see many things they couldn't see if they'd never engaged the two epic poems. It's facile to write them off as pagan this or that as many Christians do. Remember the reformers were steeped in the classics (Zwingli and Calvin especially) and knew their value (Calvin even made an exception for Homer when discussing Greek myth in general). Look at the back of John Owen's Biblical Theology and see all the references to classical Greek and Roman/Latin influences.

The classical historians, for instance, are a tremendous school to go through as preperation for engaging the history books of the Bible (as are the Greek dramatists and just about anything, Icelandic saga) just in terms of engaging difficult style and genre and developing power of attention. The strange genres of the Word of God are difficult to approach with nothing in your personal history regarding your experience with higher and diverse forms of literature.

I agree that once you climb the mountain though and you discover the summit and the Word of God and you graduate, so to speak, then you are to put childish things away, but when we are talking about the highest influences of literature and music and so on there is usually always more there to get understanding of, and it only informs in a positive way special revelation and our understanding of it.

June 22, 2008 at 8:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tyndale explicitly condemned the story of Robin Hood and all other such fictional stories.

Bunyan likewise never wrote anything that wasn't of theological/spiritual value.

When the theaters of Shakespeare and those that followed began to play, the Puritans, the Nonconformists, and the Great Awakeners all condemned them.

Whitefield particularly condemned all theatrical affiliations, including attending them, as did Spurgeon.

June 23, 2008 at 5:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tyndale was a humanist like pretty much all the great figures of the Reformation era.

You've moved the goal posts a bit in your last reply. From 'no books' to 'books on Christian subject matter OK'.

I would say, as I did above, that a great work of literature doesn't have to be explicitly about special revelation to be able to inform special revelation. Nature itself (part of general revelation) informs special revelation (this is a staid Reformed doctrine by the way).

But really, great literature and similar influences are preliminary, Scripture is ultimate. But you don't want to be someone who puts down things that got him to where he is now. John Owen makes this mistake in his Biblical Theology a little bit. All those classical influences made him the biblical scholar he was, same with Calvin, etc.

Even bad influences inform understanding of truth. Just as the experience of being fallen will inform the experience of being glorified...

June 23, 2008 at 9:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What it boils down to is what is fruitful and what is not. My view is that reading fictional works not based on the Bible are a fruitless enterprise, no matter how literary they may be.

That's also the view that Tyndale explicitly expressed, as did Bunyan, Owen, et al.

I freely admit that I'm guilty of reading certain fictional works merely for enjoyment. That doesn't necessarily mean it's sinful, but whatever is not of faith is sin, however, so it depends on the motive.

And those works I read which are not spiritual are definitely not fruitful, except in the possible sense that they give me a break mentally and physically.

But Tyndale, Bunyan, Owen, et al, would never have approved of the modern novel, or of the theater in any form.

And I also find that when I read these other works, it is then that my prayer life is not what it ought to be, for when my prayer life is what it ought to be, there is no room for extraneous material.

Now then, Tyndale, Owen, and others DID read the Greek and Latin classics and so forth, but that was done on the foundation of Scripture, in order to actually compare and refute those other systems, and you will find them doing exactly that, i.e., refuting those other systems, especially Aristotle, Plato, Aurelius, et cetera.

They also read those classics in order to further their understanding of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and what-have-you.

Tyndale, for example, translated a particularly difficult piece from Isocrates, which few could translate, just to sharpen his linguistic skills, and this of course made him that much better of a Bible translator.

So in the end, what it boils down to, is what is truly fruitful, what is truly glorifying to Jesus Christ, for in the end, that is ALL that will remail; everything else will be burned up.

That's partly what the Scripture means when it says that God will take vengeance on his people's inventions.

I can say that I occasionally read things that aren't Scripture or related to Scripture, but I cannot stand here and say that I am bearing fruit by doing so. I would be too fearful of God to make that claim, especially since I know when the Spirit is and is not bearing witness, and he he most definitely does not bear witness to Homer, except in the sense that it is clear that Greek mythology comes straight out of Genesis 6 and following.

On the other hand, I can ALWAYS say that when I read Scripture or related matter with the intent of knowing Jesus Christ and the power of his resurrection, that I am bearing fruit, everlasting fruit, and that in the end, that is all that Jesus Christ and his Father will be seeking -- FRUIT.

Bunyan's "The Barren Fig Tree" is a fabulously fruitful work on this very matter.

June 23, 2008 at 11:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You need to learn the Reformed doctrine of general revelation.

And perhaps to see this subject more clearly substitute music for literature (since you are having trouble distinguishing special revelation from inspired, great works of literature).

Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart are the musical equivalent of Homer, Shakespeare, what have you. It's influence, higher influences, language, higher languages.

And Christians have been reading Homer since the name Christian appeared in this era of the history of redemption. The Homeric epics, to put it in shorthand, are not works the devil wants you or anyone else to read. Anymore than he wants you reading Vanity Fair. Or Thucydides. The devil doesn't want you getting understanding. He wants you dumb. A Christian who knows the Bible *and* the Homeric epic is a much more dangerous Christian. A Christian with the language of the Homeric epics is not going to fall for every trick and temptation the devil sets for dumb Christians until Christ returns.

Understanding is powerful. The Bible doesn't teach mathematics, but we learn mathematics. Mathmatics is a language God created.

A Christian discerns what is vain from what is valuable. A Christian discerns degree of value in influences. A Christian with the Spirit of discernment can very well navigate waters littered with rocks.

I don't care what man approves of. What does God approve of? Wisdom for one. And the getting of Wisdom.

God is sovereign in creation, providence, and grace. He doesn't just speak in special revelation. General revelation, I'll say a third time, *informs* special revelation. This is Reformed doctrine.

The dopes of academia who self-identify as Christians aren't exactly reading the Homeric epics, by the way, it should be stated. They read comic books and third rate philosophy books about how to argue people into the faith. I would be surprised if James White, for instance, ever read a classic novel in his life. Let alone an epic poem or a classical historian. In fact I'd be surprised if he's ever read the Bible complete (certainly he hasn't read a non-mutilated Bible). And this is a trait of Christians who don't have experience with higher influences in the areas of history, imaginative literature, art, music, philosophy, science, and religion. They come to the Bible as common dopes, and they engage the Bible as common dopes. Vain, prideful, and self-willful. They're hollow at their core and shallow in their experience.

June 23, 2008 at 1:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Look for the mockers to come into this thread. They scan a long comment and look for something they deem a weakness. "Oh, the devil doesn't want us to read Vanity Fair! Ha, ha, ha!" I'll answer that one before they post it. No, not even Vanity Fair. Why? Because Thackeray presented human nature with understanding and wit. Read Thackeray and see yourself. The devil doesn't want this. The devil doesn't want the illusions of his kingdom exposed like the pen of a Thackeray was able to expose them. "But it's a boring Victorian period piece!" The person would would write that probably couldn't identify what years 'Victorian' refers to if you put a gun to his head, but nevertheless substitute Cervantes or Tolstoy or Dostoevsky or whatever. Find a good list of classics and chip away.

June 23, 2008 at 1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I didn't want to leave the impression that I was conceding Thackeray was stuck in some by-gone era. Like all classic works Vanity Fair rises above it's era and delivers universal understanding. And it's very much not boring. But if you have the attention span of a gnat, or the average professional intellectual, I'm sure you will have problems with it.

June 23, 2008 at 1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a very good understanding of Reformed doctrine, but that has nothing to do with Tyndale's EXPLICIT statements on the matter, or Bunyan or Owen or Spurgeon's own words on the matter.

If you've read Homer in English, then you know how juvenile he is. If you've read him in Greek, you get a much better feel for his literary talent, at least for the age in which he wrote.

Watchman Nee hit the nail on the head when he stated --

"It is difficult to estimate how much of the world's philosophy, ethics, knowledge, research, and science flow from the powers of darkness. But of one point we are certain: all arguments and proud obstacles against the knowledge of God are the fortresses of the enemy." The Spiritual Man, Vol III

Reformed doctrine is not the final authority; Jesus Christ is, and Jesus Christ said the flesh profiteth NOTHING.

The Holy Spirit likewise bears witness to that same truth, and he who thinks that the flesh profits ANYTHING is he who has never been profited by the Spirit.

Not one syllable of Homer is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Homer is one hundred percent FLESH and therefore profits NOTHING.

If one reads Homer in an effort to improve his linguistic skills, or to improve his knowledge of a false system, that is one thing, for then he is penetrating its falsehood with the Word of God, but if one reads Homer for wisdom, he is a fool chasing a fool's gambit, for there is not an OUNCE of true wisdom in Homer. Not an iota.

The source of ALL wisdom and the source of ALL truth is Jesus Christ. In fact, Jesus Christ is wisdom ITSELF, and truth ITSELF, and apart from Jesus Christ there is NO truth and NO wisdom. Not an iota.

Those who think otherwise have never been taught even the basics by the Holy Spirit.

June 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Not one note of Bach is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Bach is one hundred percent FLESH and therefore profits NOTHING. If one listens to Bach in an effort to improve his Psalm-singing skills, or to improve his knowledge of a vain art, that is one thing, for then he is penetrating its falsehood with the Word of God, but if one listens to Bach for understanding beauty, truth, or goodness, he is a fool chasing a fool's gambit, for there is not an OUNCE of true beauty, truth, or goodness in Bach's music. Not an iota."

- lamblion

June 23, 2008 at 8:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Epic poetry is not religion. It's poetry. In the case of Homer particularly powerful and deep poetry.

Only Special Revelation delivers saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and God's plan of redemption. This does not, though, discount the ability of General Revelation to deliver understanding, and especially after one is saved and knows Special Revelation because General Revelation informs Special Revelation. It informs it before regeneration (in a preliminary way) and it informs it after regeneration. It's not necessary for salvation, but God doesn't tell His elect to do nothing and be dopes.

June 24, 2008 at 3:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"From this passage [Titus 1:12] we may infer that those persons are superstitious, who do not venture to borrow anything from heathen authors. All truth is from God; and consequently, if wicked men have said anything that is true and just, we ought not to reject it; for it has come from God. Besides, all things are of God; and, therefore, why should it not be lawful to dedicate to his glory everything that can properly be employed for such a purpose?" - John Calvin, Commentary on Titus

June 24, 2008 at 4:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Jesus Christ, John 6:63

For one who santimoniously screams at others to allow the Word of God to take precedence over the word of men, you sure do fail to take your own medicine.

And if you think there is wisdom to be found outside of Jesus Christ, then you know nothing. Nothing at all. And I mean NOTHING.

Futher, it takes some wresting and twisting on your part to assert that I have intimated that there is nothing to be gained from reading Homer, et al, especially since in my previous posts I have enumerated several ways in which one can benefit from reading such.

As I also said, however, one who reads them for wisdom is blind and devoid of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit bears witness to JESUS CHRIST, and him ALONE.

So again, for one who exhorts others to be bound only by the Word, you sure do fail to take your own advice, as the following Scripture speaks directly to the point --

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophet, HATH IN THESE LAST DAYS SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON." Hebrews 1:1-2

Since Jesus Christ came into the world, all other forms of revelation of God have ceased.

Jesus Christ is HIMSELF the FULL revelation of God.

If you think there is revelation to be found in Homer, or Thackeray, or Ichabod, have it.

You will be dispelled of such foolish notions on the day that you see Jesus Christ in his glory.

Oh, and if you think Bach is inspired by the Holy Spirit -- to ANY degree -- then you know absolutely NOTHING of the Holy Spirit. You have never met him.

June 24, 2008 at 10:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

lamblion, just know that this exchange and subject has revealed a weakness in your understanding of revelation. I can see by your website that you are just coming into valuation of Reformed theology - Calvinism - but what you are writing above falls a bit short of understanding God's sovereignty and how God reveals Himself to His creation. A Christian can't be afraid of influences. And as Calvin states in the quote above it is superstition to say that no heathen can say anything true. God can make atheists create works that have truth in them despite themselves.

And for the record the only instance where I recommend a person read Homer instead of the Bible is when I'm dealing with a person who refuses to read the Bible and who mocks it and so on. So, I say, how about the Homeric epics? Maybe it's just an effort thing with you, eh? They then of course become suspicious of the Homeric epics, as well they should. Anything that delivers a high level and amount of inspired influence is a danger to one's vanity, worldly pride, and rebellious self-will -- potentially.

Get a good Reformed systematic theology (Berkhof perhaps) and learn of the difference between natural and supernatural revelation, and general and special revelation.

It's not about salvation. It's about understanding. There are painfully shallow *saved* Christians. So be it if someone wants to remain so. To understand human nature alone you are depriving yourself of a great treasure by writing off the great summit level poets and artists and so on that have lived.

By the way, you state the Puritans wanted to clean up the activities that surrounded the play houses (the Puritans were an extreme minority in a sea of lasciviousness), but you err in suggesting the problem was a Shakespeare. It was Puritans in the New World that founded the first Shakespeare societies.
Puritans were known for having a volume of Shakespeare next to their Bibles on the shelf. And the attraction of Homer for all Christians since the Renaissance is the Biblical nature of the Homeric epics. (Homer is not the Tales of Robin Hood. Recognizing levels of influences is part of developing real understanding. It comes from the Spirit.)

June 24, 2008 at 11:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And this is silly:

>So again, for one who exhorts others to be bound only by the Word, you sure do fail to take your own advice

I don't expect anyone to be 'bound' by anything other than the Word of God.

And I won't do as you do, overstate my position in a self-serving manner by saying I am more hardcore regarding the Bible than you are, because I think we are equally hardcore regarding the Bible.

Again, mathematics isn't taught in the Word of God, yet man gets understanding of God's creation and ability to have dominion over God's creation from the language of mathematics. It is a language God created. Try to see that. Mathematics won't save you, obviously, but it will give you understanding and power God intends you to have.

And, again (these are new ideas for people so they have to be repeated) influences reside in a hierarchy. Influences are not all the same. Only dumb left-wing professors think the Iliad and a comic book are basically the same thing in terms of level of influence. Atheists bring everything down to biology and what have you. The Spirit teaches otherwise.

June 24, 2008 at 11:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For one who continuously misqotes and misrepresents, it is quite apparent that the only real conversations you have is with yourself.

For example, you ignorantly asserted --

"By the way, you state the Puritans wanted to clean up the activities that surrounded the play houses (the Puritans were an extreme minority in a sea of lasciviousness), but you err in suggesting the problem was a Shakespeare."

I neither stated nor implied any such thing. Your inability to grasp basic conversation plays over and over again. As I said, the only real conversations you have is with yourself, for you have made NUMEROUS ignorant and inaccurate statements about my position. You can't follow a simple context, as you've demonstrated with me and others I've seen you converse with. Thus, your analogies are likewise nothing but mental disconnects.

In short, you have a propendency for false projection, and that of course speaks of much greater issues, which I won't go into.

I was curious when I began reading your blog because you took a strong stand against the apostasy of modern Christendom, but any reprobate can do that, for any reprobate can see the utter hypocrisy of modern Christendom.

I was hopeful for you, but when I saw your foul mouth several times, along with many other total disconnects of your character, along with your complete lack of knowledge of the man Christ Jesus, my hope began to wane.

I was optimistic that you were just being disobedient, because it is infallibly certain that the Holy Spirit didn't lead you to pour out your foul mouth, for not only do the Scriptures command the elect not to speak unwholesome words, which has nothing to do with being discerning and speaking forcefully of course, but rather, with gutter language, but also, neither does the Holy Spirit use foul language, for the Holy Spirit speaks only as Jesus Christ himself speaks.

In short, you also don't know the Jesus I know.

Farewell.

June 24, 2008 at 12:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anybody can see my link to "the Christian Library" in the righthand margin of the blog. Anyone who takes that as "Homer will save you" is either not very experienced with things or is making a false charge to sooth a vanity that has been wounded a bit.

I get mocked over and over when I say read the Bible complete. I get called a pagan over and over (the Carm guy Matt Slick made it a point to 'counsel' me via email about how sick and irrational Greek myth is, thanks Matt) when I write about literature or any influence that isn't special revelation.

Christians - churchians, to be clear - as a whole are not only worldly, but they're shallow. The devil's kingdom inculcates worldliness and shallowness, among all the other wonderful things it inculcates in its denizens. The devil also wants his prisoners dumb. Real dumb. Ignorant. Afraid of engaging influences that are outside their current interests (defined by the opinion of dumb humans surrounding them) and above their current level of understanding (lack of power of attention will take care of this one, human disapproval notwithstanding).

The Calvin quote I posted above states how a follower of Christ with the Holy Spirit in them sees it (not surprising). Mr. LambLion didn't want to interact with that quote very much, I noticed.

I say read Homer, the churchian says "Only Jesus saves!" This after I've written a thousand page book stating over and over the only way a currently unregenerate person can do anything regarding regeneration is to engage the Word of God directly, and in a dedicated manner - complete readings - over and over (I put a number on it and then churchians accuse me of being 'occult' for putting a number on it).

The language I use is done because long ago I stopped trying to walk on eggshells around dumb church Christians. Who cares if dumb church Christians get insulted? They need to be shocked. They put themselves between God and man and then accuse followers of Jesus of everything under the sun.

The fact is they are scared of God's elect, as well they should be. Their comfortable world is constantly under threat when we are around...

And, lamblion: step back and realize you flamed out under a post about me reading Tom Jones. I tweaked your vanity once or twice in the first comments and you made it all into salvation issue.

And, really: I'm serious when I say get a good Reformed systematic theology and read up on the doctrine of revelation. Reformed theologians such as Berkhof are very good on the subject. I mean, Calvin was good on the subject in a different way, but for a technical definition Berkhof is good. Get his Manual of Christian Doctrine or his big ST.

June 24, 2008 at 10:08 PM  

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