This thread, started after reading a recent news story on a parole denial of a Manson gang member turned into something interesting

Hey, I never saw this before... Famous crime scene photo

Don't ask how I got here:

http://flapsblog.com/2008/07/15/charles-manson-follower-susan-atkins-denied-compassionate-release/comment-page-2/

OK, I was reading a news story about how a Manson gang woman was denied parole again recently.

I know I've been sending a lot of murder and mayhem stuff recently, but, really, nothing intended by it. I just thought this photo in the link above of the crime scene was rare. - C.

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Re: Hey, I never saw this before... Famous crime scene photo

Scroll down this web page about 3/4 and there are dozens of links to crime scene photos of the Manson murders:

http://www.members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/manson.html

Like this one of the heiress of the Folger coffee fortune who was killed at the Polanski house with Sharon Tate:

http://www.members.tripod.com/~VanessaWest/folger.jpg

OK, I'll stop now. - C.

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Re: Re: Hey, I never saw this before... Famous crime scene photo

Read Abigail Folger's wikipedia page. The detail that caught my eye is she had large amounts of a psychodelic drug in her system when killed. Yes, I'm bringing an occult angle: these drugs are called sorcery in the Bible.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
Act 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

This 'Simon' fellow sounds just like Charlie Manson.

Anyway, it's possible a person, or group of people can 'draw' such violence and evil towards themselves when under the influence of such drugs. - C.

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'sorcery' and drugs, and some other interesting things...

On the PuritanBoard, Steve Rafalsky, a former '60s drug taker type, writes about the connection between the KJV word 'sorcery' and certain illegal drugs. Here is a good exchange with good info:

Tim V. (a guy who works with plants) wrote:

"To throw a different sort of wrench into the discussion, what about plants? I've been collecting plants for years that can alter conscience, and many if not most here know one word translated in the NT for sorcery is the same work we get pharmacy from, and those drugs associated with sorcery back then as now come mostly from plants.

So where's the line there? Betel nut, cannabis, opium, several sages, coffee, cacao leaves etc..Which are lawful for medicine or even recreation and which aren't?"

Steve Rafalsky answered:

"An interesting wrench you throw into the works! You said, “So where's the line there? Betel nut, cannabis, opium, several sages, coffee, cacao leaves etc..Which are lawful for medicine or even recreation and which aren't?” Some of these are out of my knowledge, as Betel nut, sages, cacao leaves. I had a discussion with a PB person a while back concerning cannabis (grass), and was surprised that some – even here at PB – advocated for the legalization of grass and hashish, and considered the Feds out of bounds in criminalizing it. It even seemed as they would have no problem using it.

Medical use of narcotics (not psychedelics) is one thing, which I don’t contest. Medical use of marijuana – legal where you are, I know – opens a door to what I call “the satanic wavelength” which, although it may ease some physical and psychological symptoms, devastates spiritually.

I think the principle underlying what are and are not sorcerous drugs / potions / smokes is the nature of the psychoactive effect. Coffee certainly isn’t of that order (though it is a drug I can’t use but in minute quantities these days – just a wee bit in my decaf grounds), but grass, LSD, PCP, peyote, mushrooms, yage, speed, coke, mescaline (and mescal buttons), and crack, ecstasy (though I am not closely familiar with the latter two) and such are clearly in the sorcery category. The aforementioned “psychoactive effect” is that it energizes the faculty within the human being which is able to commune with other spirits, both human and demonic. Hindus matter-of-factly use hashish for just this purpose – contacting spirit entities – in their religion. Certain Native Americans and their shamans do likewise with peyote, mescal buttons, and mushrooms.

Some folks who get high on grass or acid and watch TV are awestruck at the “spiritual” acuity and profundity of the perceptions and dialogue of the actors / actresses, and even the commercials seem to be masterworks. This is not just a “high effect” but reflects the stoned consciousness of many actors / actresses, and perhaps it is commonly known that many creators of commercials have prostituted their gifts by availing themselves of demonic brilliance and depth through enhancing their skills by means of sorcery.

I think the prevalence of drugs, especially grass and hash (the latter derived from the former), is way underrated in our culture. There are a number of books documenting the widespread governmental use of LSD concurrent with (and a bit prior to) the beatnik and hippie phases, especially the CIA, other intelligence agencies, and high-ranking military personnel, even well-known politicians. It was thoroughly experimented with as a means of psychological warfare, as well as consciousness enhancement.

LSD (acid) is also still used, but quietly, without the fanfare of former days. These sorcerous potions inform much of the consciousness of our times. And if they are legalized – which a less conservative government may be prone to do – what is to stop Christians from partaking of them, if a clear Scriptural prohibition is denied?

In the NT (primarily in Revelation) words deriving from the Greek pharmakon (drug, potion) are used to describe an activity; pharmakon may mean, 1) medicine, 2) poison, or 3) magical potion, or a drug used to enchant. Only the third use is feasible in Rev 18:23 (& Gal 5:20), Rev 21:8, and 22:15. If the church is united – at the pastoral level – on this being an activity of the flesh, and one such that the Lord has said practitioners of it will be denied entrance to the gates of the Heavenly City, as will murderers, whoremongers, idolaters, and liars as well (22:15), then the church will be safeguarded whatever the laws of a lawless land permit."

- C.

ps- If that last post from Rafalsky was interesting here is, I believe, a uniquely interesting post from him from the same forum:

"This is a very interesting topic, and quite controversial! There are truly godly people who recommend the Harry Potter books – saying they have Christian themes within them – and those who thoroughly oppose them. (I once wrote a negative review of the first 5 books titled, “REFLECTIONS OF A FORMER OCCULTIST, NOW THOROUGHLY CONVERTED TO CHRIST, ON HARRY POTTER”. I have yet to review the last.)

I am using that book as a culturally accepted presentation of witchcraft. I know nothing of D&D, save that the role-playing villainous characters, or even “good” characters who cast spells, is akin to role-playing adultery, etc – in my view. Ditto with the ouija board and its direct demonic activity.

But what about the books and movies which do not require such participation? (I am still pondering the view that acting per se is sinful – a view I saw espoused here on PB – and do not know.)

To me, who grew up in the sixties, with the drugs, Eastern spiritual paths, occult teachings (as in Theosophy, etc) functioning and being conscious in the spiritual or psychic realms is the cultural context I live in; in other words, the secular world of mere material reality is as a cardboard prop in denial of God’s world, with its angelic creatures, demonic invaders, and humans who ally themselves with God or His adversaries.

When I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy – as a Christian, but backslidden – it was a visionary work of sorts, even though an artistic literary production, and in the fantasy genre.

The reality I live in is not the “mere material reality” of many unbelievers. I live in, and participate in, the Global Arena of Consciousness, which is located on Apokalypse Field outside the gates of Eden. There is much occult stuff that goes on here – please note, “occult” comes from a Latin root which means simply hidden from view, as in occult carcinoma or occult blood in the stool, and could as easily apply to the hidden prayers and spiritual warfare of a saint as it could to a demonic practitioner, except for the common usage which refers it only to the demonic. But this is not how I use the term!

The world I occupy is filled with two kinds of people, the unregenerate, and the regenerate – or, in modern parlance, the living dead – zombie, vampire, werewolf – those covered with wondrous skin coverings but within are progeny of the Devil; and the children of light, daughters and sons of the Most High God, filled with His Spirit, and in fierce spiritual combat with the living dead, whom they nonetheless seek to win over to the Light. In the global arena – or the world stage – all manner of voices lifted up, as though a great gladiatorial combat of spiritual warriors, seeking to establish vision of the truth, of the real. Except for the politicians and military – who impact the physical realm greatly – most of the voices lifted up are in the occult and mental regions. This is the world I – and I must say we all, conscious of it or not – live in.

In our literature and film we love to project out of us the spiritual horror of the unregenerate – we as a species – and not own that inwardly this is our own reality. Vampires are but those who psychically drain the vitality of their fellows – sometimes mutually – and the werewolves are those who rage and devour the emotional lives of others. They are of the same line, only they have different feeding styles.

So this talk of occult stuff infiltrating the church is sort of misperceiving the reality. We live in the midst of the occult regions – and where the prime deception is the “New York Times mentality” of a proper world ordered and material in essence – with the task of the people of God being to give discernment of the true and the false in the occult. To herald the One who came into our world a Champion of Light, and rescuer of those turned monsters by the ancient and dread sting of death.

I personally believe there is a new age of presentation of the Gospel coming, one which does not deny or suppress the occult, but exposes it from within, revealing the horror, and the glory. And the church will be seen as a glorious entity dwelling in the midst of dark powers – Christ's own community of saints, the haven of the lost seeking His rescue."